Software Vault: The Diamond Collection/The Diamond Collection (Software Vault)(Digital Impact).ISO/cdr15/falshist.zip/FALSHIST.TXT

Text File | 1995-02-04 | 104KB | 2,277 lines

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Jim Ober               January 23, 1995 09:16:14
From :  DARRELL  PRUITT, 75407,3146     #73271

Jim,

I have been reading your posts for several weeks concerning the
Toronto phenomenon.  Please allow me to share a few thoughts.

I am a pastor of a new Calvary Chapel. In case you are unfamiliar
with the CC's, the foundation of what we do is verse-by-verse
exposition of the Scriptures.
I would consider us to be very mildly charismatic; we reject the
bulk of what passes for the "charasmatic" experience in churches
today, but do believe in the validity and biblically-based
operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit for our day.

I have several friends, in other churches, who I thought were sound
in the faith, who have latched onto this Toronto thing.  So, being
one open to something that is truly of God (and not wanting to
repeat the mistake so often seen in the past by church leaders who
rejected out of pocket genuine movements of God; ie, the Great
Awakenings, Azusa St.,etc.), I began to investigate.   I gathered
info on RH Browne, listen to some excerpted tape materials, and
prayed.  Finally, I and one of my elders went to a local Vineyard
fellowship were this was "happening".    I was saddened by what I
saw & heard.  First, the message (yes, there was a short bible
study) was extremely divisive - it was basically, get with us or
get ran over. After the study, the pastor promised God was going to
show up with "signs & wonders". Sorry, but God declined.  However,
what did happen was what I believe the pastor was referring to; a
few people "slain", a couple laughing, one jerking, one making
sounds like she was having a baby and rocking back and forth on
the floor, on her back.  (what broke my heart is that this was a
personal friend of mine)

Needless to say, from all my research and my personal observation,
I can say conclusively that this is not of God.  Are some people
having genuine expereinces with God?  Yes; I in my quiet time with
the Lord have been known to laught with joy, cry, etc., but as you
pointed out, I always had the self-control to stop at any time.
But, the driving force behind this is NOT of God.

In reference to the debate between the Word and the Spirit (which
is ridiculous when you think about it - the Holy Spirit wrote the
Word!!),  I think it would be wise for all to consider the words of
Donald Gee, the foremost PENTECOSTAL theologian of this century;
"The one golden rule is to bring question & every difficulty to the
written word of God - and then submit to it. However attractive a
temporary deviation from the Scriptures may appear, it is always
fraught with tremendous danger. Safe progress is only assured as we
hold fast the faithful Word.  We believe the Bible contains all the
light the church in any age will ever need on any subject."
   (from "Concerning Spiritual Gifts", close of chapter 13)


Thanks for all your work on this topic,

In Jesus,
Darrell



Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  DARRELL  PRUITT, 75407,3146      January 23, 1995 21:06:05
From :  Tim Rettger, 72074,1743         #73516

>>However attractive a temporary deviation from the Scriptures may
appear, it is always fraught with tremendous danger. Safe progress
is only assured as we hold fast the faithful Word.  We believe the
Bible contains all the light the church in any age will ever need
on any subject." <<

   Sufficient and Efficient for instruction and doctrine! I liked
your post....and I hold to the fact that His Word is complete for
our instruction.
IN Christ
Tim

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  DARRELL  PRUITT, 75407,3146      January 24, 1995 21:21:02
From :  jim ober, 71043,3424       #73873

Darrell,

The driving force behind this is NOT of God as you have observed.

Some have tried to frame this issue as charismatic vs.
anti-charismatic. (And that is part of the deception) Such is not
the case. Donald Gee's view of the authority of scripture is what
is in question here. Of course Gee is right.

Jim

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  DARRELL  PRUITT, 75407,3146      January 27, 1995 15:36:20
From :  Tricia Tillin, 100074,3125 #75011

 >> Needless to say, from all my research and my personal
observation, I can say conclusively that this is not of God. <<

 Darrell, excuse my butting in, but I was pleased to see your
mature assessment of this phenomenon.  I have been researching this
for nearly a year, and while I began with an open mind, the
testimonies I have been receiving have shown all too clearly the
damage this is doing.

 There is also emerging the fact of it being experience-driven.
For instance, two letters I received this week:

 QUOTE ONE:
 "When I questioned (the eldership) about Toronto, and gave
scriptures in support of my fears, I was told by the leading elder
that the Word of God had failed them, and that they were now going
with signs and wonders because they wanted growth..."

 2nd Quote - from a lady who lives in Ontario:
 Some Vineyard people held a prayer meeting at our church and most
of the elders are going to the Howard-Browne meetings in Florida
next week.  People from our church have come back from Vineyard
with weird chopping arm movements, strange head-ducking signs - it
reminded me of the Masons...some recent news from the Airport. John
Arnott recently stated that soul winning was top priority but "I
don't believe that anymore". He said God's river had been flowing
now for 2,000 years and has been called by many names - Roman
Catholic, Presbyterian, Pentecostal and many others.  He confessed
that meetings were "out of control" but that "the river of Ezek 47
becomes uncrossable in fact, unmanageable".  These statements,
especially the first, are interesting in light of the information
we recently had from a family friend who is pastor of an Arab
church in-----------.  He decided he'd better check out Vineyard
after some of his men went there and subsequently lost their zeal
for street evangelism.
 In fact, he couldn't get them to do any witnessing and one even
told him that he'd had a revelation at Vineyard that Jesus wasn't
God. On the evening he attended, women were lined up at the front
for prayer with a line of elders behind them.  It ended up with
them seeming to simulate the sex act. Indeed, one pair embraced
passionately, with the leadership doing nothing about it."
 End of testimony.

 So, you see that with this sort of evidence coming in, I can
hardly believe it is ALL of God, as some would claim.  Obviously,
I cannot interview the people personally, at least not just yet, so
you will have to take their statements on trust.  They were not
written in an attempt to destroy Vineyard, but were personal
remarks in a private letter.

 Tricia

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Tricia Tillin, 100074,3125  January 27, 1995 17:31:25
From :  DARRELL  PRUITT, 75407,3146     #75047

Thanks for your kind comments.  My wife & I have several friends
who have been pulled into this; at this point, I believe all we can
do is to pray.

And, I certainly believe you are correct in your observation that
the bottom line of this is the sufficiency and validity and
relevancy of the Word of God.
  I'll cast my lot with it, for sure

Thanks again,
Darrell


Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  DARRELL  PRUITT, 75407,3146      January 28, 1995 10:50:15
From :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550         #75306

--->  And, I certainly believe you are correct in your observation
--->  that the bottom line of this is the sufficiency and validity
--->  and relevancy of the Word of God. I'll cast my lot with it,
--->  for sure.

Amen to you and Tricia. Even Jonathan Edwards to whom many of the
Toronto advocates point to justify these strange manifestations
wrote this:

     "They who leave the sure word of prophecy - which God has
     given us as a light shining in a dark place - to follow such
     impressions and impulses, leave the guidance of the polar star
     to follow a Jack with a lantern. No wonder therefore that
     sometimes they are led into woeful extravagances."
                    (JE, On Revival, p.14)

     "Why cannot we be contented with the divine oracles, that
     holy, pure word of God, which we have in such abundance and
     clearness, now since the canon of Scripture is completed? Why
     should we desire to have any thing added to them by impulses
     from above? Why should we not rest in that standing rule that
     God has given to his church, which the apostles teaches us, is
     surer than a voice from heaven? And why should we desire to
     make the Scripture speak more to us than it does?"
                    (JE, Some Thoughts, p.404)

1:19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and
you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in
a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in
your hearts.
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture
came about by the prophet's own interpretation.
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men
spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as
there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly
introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who
bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of
truth into disrepute. (2 Peter 1:19-2:2)

God bless,
Annie

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550          January 28, 1995 16:23:10
From :  DARRELL  PRUITT, 75407,3146     #75475

Great quote from J.Edwards!!  Let's pray that the fall-out from
this will not be too farreaching, and the carnage not catastrophic.

In Jesus,
Darrell

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  DARRELL  PRUITT, 75407,3146      January 28, 1995 21:21:00
From :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550         #75594

---> Great quote from J.Edwards!! <---

Thank you. Thought it might offer some balance. His name is being
used to affirm the practices of the alleged "Toronto Blessing". If
he would've approved them as is asserted, then it must be alright.
He did not encourage the physical manifestations and tried to
restrain his congregation.

Anyone who has read "A Treatise on Religious Affections" can see
his contention was that the occurrence of physical effects proved
nothing one way or the other. He deferred to biblical criteria in
verifying a true work of God.

---> Let's pray that the fall-out from this will not be too
---> farreaching, and the carnage not catastrophic.

Let's just pray without ceasing all the way around!

God bless,
Annie

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550          January 31, 1995 15:08:23
From :  Tricia Tillin, 100074,3125 #76560

 >> Anyone who has read "A Treatise on Religious Affections" can
see his contention was that the occurrence of physical effects
proved nothing one way or the other. He deferred to biblical
criteria in verifying a true work of God. <<

 Hello Annie,
 Thanks for the interesting quotes from J Edwards.  As it happens
I opened up my mail this morning (snail-mail that is!) to find the
book "Jonathan Edwards On Revival" which contains "Distinguishing
Marks..." and "A narrative of surprising conversions..." as well as
other essays.

 I opened it up to browse and found the exact same passage that you
just quoted.  Imagine my surprise when I found it in your message
this evening!

 I think God is trying to tell us something.

 I also read today some extracts from a book about Wesley.  Wesley
also spent a lot of time denouncing strange manifestations.  He was
very balanced, and did not deny that God could move in mysterious
ways, especially when sinners were under conviction, but he never
suggested that bodily contortions were to be encouraged, nor that
they should continue after the person got saved.

 Thanks again for your message.
 Tricia

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Tricia Tillin, 100074,3125  January 31, 1995 18:33:10
From :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550         #76632

---> I think God is trying to tell us something.

I do believe He is as well.

---> Thanks for the interesting quotes from J Edwards.

You're welcome.

---> As it happens I opened up my mail this morning (snail-mail
---> that is!) to find the book "Jonathan Edwards On Revival" which
---> contains "Distinguishing Marks..." and "A narrative of
---> surprising conversions..." as well as other essays.

Imagine that! I have just sent up a lengthy quote from Edwards'
"Distinginguishing Marks..." here myself.

Speaking of incoming information in the mail, I just read an
interesting passage by Jonathan Edwards taken from Ian Murray's
biography of him (p.193). It seems an important distinctive since
much has been made of Sarah Edwards and her physical manifestations
in an attempt to "prove" Jonathan would have condoned the goings on
up in Toronto. Jonathan Edwards says of his wife, Sarah:

"She had formerly been subject to unsteadiness and it was many ups
and downs in the frame of mind, being under great disadvantages
through a vaporous habit of body, and often subject to melancholy,
and at times almost overborne with it, having been so even from
early youth". He adds that even after 1742, "Vapours have had great
effects on the body, such as they used to have before, but the soul
has always remained out of their reach".

Edwards appears to view his wife's condition as more typical of her
emotional make-up and certainly not of any special spiritual
significance at all, doesn't he?

God bless,
Annie

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550          February 1, 1995 11:03:06
From :  Frank W. Clement, 74152,1223    #76891

Dear Annie,

I have just tapped into this thread and find what you and Jim and
Tricia have been saying, especially concerning any connection or
approval that Jonathan Edwards might have given the holy laughter
phenomena, is just great.
Those who think that Edwards would have given his approval of such
"subjective experiences" as we see in Toronto and elsewhere simply
do not know Edwards.
Upon reading many of his works I find him to be one of the most
solid and discerning men of his or any other time. His writings are
a blessing. So, anyone who cares to use Edwards in defense of the
laughter phenom. should read, The Distinguishing Marks of a Work of
the Spirit of God, or The Experience that Counts (to name a few),
or they're going to find out they're holding a cobra in their
hands. In his book "Religious Affections" he distinguishes between
what is true and what is false.  Affections are a part of us and
they are right and good WHEN they are centered on the Lord and are
stirred up by true visions and revelations of Him.
Such affections are usually accompanied with tears of love, joy, &
thanks because our God is so wonderful and good (to say the least)
and worthy of all our praise.  Or they may even be accompanied by
laughter, not prolonged hysterical laughter, but a laugh that
proceeds from the mouth of one who is standing in awe of Him
realizing that He has you in His hand and no power can take you
out.  (Makes me laugh and shout with joy every time to know that my
God is in absolute control.)
But the "mindless" seeking after signs and wonders (i.e.
laughing/roaring/shaking violently etc.) that we see in Toronto and
elsewhere, would not be tolerated long by Edwards.  In fact he said
that IT WAS THESE VERY THINGS WE SEE HAPPENING AT TORONTO; that had
also started to manifest themselves shortly after the Great
Awakening began; THAT FINALLY QUENCHED THE SPIRIT AND ENDED THE
AWAKENING.  By this and the Scriptures he clearly distinguishes
what are works of the Spirit of God and their effect and what are
works of Satan and their effect.  Night and day!  (To those with
eyes to see) (And they use Edwards to justify their phenomena?  No
way!)

Enjoy your posts, Annie.
God bless you.

Biff

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550          February 2, 1995 14:32:00
From :  Tricia Tillin, 100074,3125 #77391

Annie,
 So glad somebody is exposing the Edwards fiasco!  One of my
friends had the flu recently but phoned me very excited because he
was able to spend some days just reading Edwards devotionally.   He
hasn't had much to do with the TE, and wasn't very aware of the way
Edwards is being quoted, but he said in a very agitated way,
Tricia, what Edwards says is just totally the opposite to the TE!
He's now going to spend more time on it and write something
exposing the abuses.  I wish he could be writing this message, but
- we will just have to wait.

 In the meanwhile, I thought I would re-post parts of a message I
sent to another forum, just in case anyone had not seen it.

 MESSAGE
BEGINS:============================================================

 >> Have you read John MacArthur's latest book "Reckless Faith".
He demolishes the argument that anything that Edwards ever said
would support what's going on in Toronto.<<

 No, it is not yet available in the UK, I think.  I will try to get
hold of it.

 >> Here is a quote: "Such emotional outbursts in the Great
Awakening invariably happened in response to the messages preached.
There were no random or irrational eruptions of raw passion.  If
there was weeping, it was provoked by genuine sorrow.  If there was
wailing, it reflected real terror of the Lord. If there was
laughter, it was the expression of a joyful heart, not just empty
spontaneous hysterics."<<

 Yes, those who have really read Edwards know for sure that his is
now being abused as the "leader" of a new cultic form of
Christianity that places the manifestations above scripture and
glories in feelings rather than faith.

 The manifestations in previous revivals (and there were NOT as
widespread as some would have you believe) were caused by deep
sorrow over sin - they were experienced mainly by unbelievers and
"professors of religion" (= backsliders and nominal christians) and
when these people came through, by the grace of God, to an
understanding of their salvation, and to peace and forgiveness,
they STOPPED manifesting these signs of conviction!

 In no way whatsoever did Edwards, Wesley or any other revivalist
lead Christians to CONTINUE seeking for and receiving prayer night
after night, so that the manifestations could continue. Even
ongoing evidences of overpowering joy, such as to cause Mrs Edwards
to "swoon" (a common event with Mrs Edwards, so I am informed!)
were not encouraged and were kept in check, lest they becoming the
prominent factor in the revival.

 Here is an extract from a review of "Catch The Fire" by Malcolm
Jones, writing in "Evangelicals Now" January 1995.(UK)

 "Christian leaders are warned that they may be excluded from the
move of the Spirit that will take place...because many of them will
disqualify themselves by not responding to what the Father will be
saying (p.30) This makes the work of a reviewer somewhat
precarious.  For though we are invited to Toronto in order to
"check it out" and are encouraged to "test the spirits", the
required conclusions are also made very clear.  The last time
Jonathan Edwards is wheeled out, it is so that we will be in no
doubt that our response to "The Toronto Blessing" will determine
whether we are "for or against the king" (p.204),  Evidently, there
is no middle ground.
 ...the author spends one chapter explaining what he sees as the
biblical foundation for recent happennings at Toronto.  it seems
that "the biblical record is full of accounts of people being
physically moved when they experienced God's immediacy" (p.45) Such
a deduction is not to be wondered at when the words "he makes me to
lie down" (Ps23) take on new meaning for "those who have done
carpet time at the airport" (p.51). The major chapter in the book,
taking up to one third of the volume, is devoted to drawing
paralleles between the revival associated with Jonathan Edwards and
what is happenning at Toronto.
 Why is it that other evangelistic heroes - eg, luther, Whitfield,
Spurgeon and Graham - have suddenly been eclipsed by our dear
brother Edwards?  Could it possibly be that our concern for
salvation of the lost has been replaced by the cult of
self-fulfillment?
 As I read the chapter carefully, I couldn't help noticing a
profound difference between the cautious approach of the Edwards's
to their experiences and those of the Toronto leadership. In her
records of events, Mrs Edwards kept saying "I could with difficulty
refrain" and "I could scarecely forbear". At Toronto all caution
seems to have gone to the winds as considerable pressure is felt to
line up and "receive prayer".

 END OF QUOTE.
 Tricia

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Tricia Tillin, 100074,3125  February 3, 1995 15:12:28
From :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550         #77870

---> So glad somebody is exposing the Edwards fiasco!

I was rather stunned when I began to carefully evaluate the
writings of Edwards against what was being ascribed to him up in
Toronto. At best, it is very poor scholarship and, at worst,
blatant proof-texting. Neither scenario is very becoming.

---> One of my friends...said in a very agitated way, "Tricia, what
---> Edwards says is just totally the opposite to the TE!"

I have found that to be the case, too, at every turn.

---> He's now going to spend more time on it and write something
---> exposing the abuses.  I wish he could be writing this message,
---> but - we will just have to wait.

I am looking forward to seeing what his research unearths. Please
let me know if you can.

---> No, it [Reckless Faith] is not yet available in the UK, I
think.
---> I will try to get hold of it.

If you will email me your address, I will try to get a copy and
send it to you air mail if you like.

---> Here is a quote:

Thank you for taking the time to copy your post from the RF over
here. It was very enlightening.

God bless,
Annie


Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550          January 28, 1995 22:35:31
From :  jim ober, 71043,3424       #75622

Annie,

Thanks for the quotes.

The Edwards revival and many others are often used to proof
"experience" this move. (Apparently proof texts haven't been
working very well.)

It is interesting that Jonathan Edwards never said, "God is bigger
than his word."

If one wants to detect a counterfeit one can't just boldly proclaim
the similarities. One must look carefully for the differences. And
they are there for all with eyes to see. The counterfeit is good
but it isn't perfect.

Jim

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  jim ober, 71043,3424        January 29, 1995 02:11:12
From :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550         #75671

---> Thanks for the quotes. <---

You're welcome.

---> The Edwards revival and many others are often used to proof
---> "experience" this move. (Apparently proof texts haven't been
---> working very well.)

I would encourage people to read the works of Jonathan Edwards for
themselves rather than basing a conclusion upon selected quotes
alone. It is why I listed the specific page numbers in my quotes.

The two central figures in the Great Awakening, Jonathan Edwards
and George Whitefield, were both avowed Calvinists all their
Christian lives. Therefore, I find the following comments by
William DeArteaga on the audiotape of 10/13/94, Toronto Vineyard
Airport 9:15 AM meeting puzzling. He blames Calvinism for shutting
down the Great Awakening revival, credits Edwards with developing
the Protestant "theology of discernment" and yet its two primary
figures _were_ Calvinists:

"Calvin has no theology of discernment....We all now associate the
Great Awakening with Jonathan Edwards and his great books on the
Awakening....So, really, Jonathan Edwards developed the Protestant
theology of discernment as far as I can see....his theology is
probably the best that there has ever come around. So, that's one
incident where the Pharisees stopped revival."

In his book, Quenching the Spirit, the primary theological "bully"
is Calvinism and on pp.32, 52, DeArteaga asserts:

"Calvinist theology could not interpret the spiritual experiences
that were to accompany the Great Awakening....using the assumption
of Calvinist theology, Charles Chauncy ensured the defeat of the
Awakening."

How could such assertions be accurate in light of the fact that
Jonathan Edwards was always a Calvinist? I do not believe they are
correct.

When the Great Awakening died out, Edwards evaluated the reasons
why and concluded it was not the opposition who were the cause of
it as Ian Murray states in his biography, "Jonathan Edwards",
p.216:

"He came to believe that there was one principal cause of the
reversal, namely, the unwatchfulness of the friends of the
Awakening who allowed genuine and pure religion to become so mixed
with 'wildfire' and carnal 'enthusiasm,' that the Spirit of God was
grieved and the advantage given to Satan."

It is obvious Edwards believed the Awakening was quenched by
fanaticism, extremism, and not "pharisaism". DeArteaga equates
pharisaism with Calvinism, which leads back to incongruence when
the steadfast Calvinistic leanings of Edwards and Whitefield are
carefully examined.

DeArteaga, even well aware of Edwards' conclusions about fanaticism
ending the Awakening, makes the following comments in his book,
p.55:

"In spite of Edwards' own theories, it seems that the Great
Awakening was not quenched because of its extremists. It was
quenched because of the condemnation of its opponents. This
condemnation demoralized the supporters and marred the faith of the
public to the point where they no longer welcomed the presence of
the Spirit."

DeArteaga has no historical evidences to support those allegations,
rather, the historical evidences _refute_ those suppositions. It is
very strange.

---> It is interesting that Jonathan Edwards never said, "God is
---> bigger than his word."

No, quite the opposite. His views on using biblical criteria to
substantiate a genuine work/move of God are clear.

---> If one wants to detect a counterfeit one can't just boldly
---> proclaim the similarities. One must look carefully for the
---> differences. And they are there for all with eyes to see. The
---> counterfeit is good but it isn't perfect.

The most dangerous counterfeit is always the one which most closely
resembles the truth. It is usually the nuances and subtleties by
which error is discerned in matters like this. Which is why the
perfect "theology of discernment" is found in Scripture:

"Your word is a lamp to my feet
and a light for my path." (Ps 119:105)

"and if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
then you will understand the fear of the LORD
and find the knowledge of God.
For the LORD gives wisdom,
and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding." (Prov. 2:3-6)

God bless,
Annie

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550          January 29, 1995 15:45:27
From :  jim ober, 71043,3424       #75795

Annie,

The discussion of Calvinism and revival is quite interesting. An
ironic twist is that a kind of "false" Calvinism is helping to keep
this move moving.  Many seem to say if it's of God you can't stop
it, and if it isn't it will die on it's own. (ie: No theology of
discernment is even to be used. Except by the leaders, who just
"KNOW"). Many seem to be unconcerned about how many might be hurt
before the end comes.

What is happening is that some people believe they just "know" the
truth. If everything, scripture, history, EVERYTHING has to be
adjusted to what people "know", it will be so adjusted. The
"theology of discernment" here is that if you ROTFL you will know
and if you don't you won't. As one advocate put it,"You need to see
with your own spiritual eye." And what of those who have seen it
that way and are unconvinced? They just saw it in the wrong church.
What if it is Rodney Howard-Browne himself? Well even Rodney makes
mistakes (This one is starting to get popular).

Personal experience has become the standard of truth for
EVERYTHING. Logic and reason, scripture and history, just aren't
going to work. So these tools of the mind have to be discredited.
And many are trying to discredit those tools.

It must be a little frustrating to read what Edwards actually wrote
in it's totality and then see how he is being proof-texted to
defend the indefensible. Don't be surprised if the story starts to
change as a result of your posting. You may get a,"He doesn't
really mean..... He has just been misunderstood...." You shine the
light on one error and another pops out of the woodwork somewhere
else.

Scripture doesn't move. The Holy Spirit doesn't move. He is
omnipresent. But boy does this move, move.

Trying to dissect confusion is always a dangerous enterprise but it
is interesting that the Calvinists are now being associated with
the Pharisees. One can only wonder who they are going after with
that one. (For the record I'm not a Calvinist <G>). Perhaps the
plan is to try and discredit everyone.

The one thing that RHB has said from the beginning that is true, is
that NO MAN can stop a true move of God. But what happens if this
one is stopped? Perhaps they are already looking for some
theological "insurance"

Keep your light shining bright. It's a blessing to all who seek
truth.

Jim

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  jim ober, 71043,3424        January 30, 1995 19:45:13
From :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550         #76251

---> Many seem to say if it's of God you can't stop it, and if it
---> isn't it will die on it's own.

Yes, and the proof texts quoted in defense of "it" are
Gamaliel'scomments in Acts 5:38-39:

"Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these menalone!
Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of humanorigin, it
will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be ableto stop these
men; you will only find yourselves fighting againstGod."

However, it is important to look at the context of "the
presentcase" Gamaliel was referring to. What were Peter and the
otherapostles preaching and teaching? Christ and Him crucified,
arisenand exalted, as Acts 5:29-31 tells us:

"Peter and the other apostles replied: We must obey God rather
thanmen! The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead--whom
youhad killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him to his
ownright hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance
andforgiveness of sins to Israel."

Therefore, if the same things were being taught in Toronto -
Christand Him crucified - the proof text might be valid, but I do
notfind that the case at all.

A word count of the transcripts from the audiotape teachings at
theToronto Airport Vineyard from early fall through
mid-Decemberyielded some alarming results. What the condensed chart
representsare the times references are made to the Holy Spirit and
prophecy(or prophetic or prophesy) without any simultaneous
reference toJesus. The number of times the Holy Spirit is reduced
to beingreferred to as an "_it_" are so staggering I stopped trying
to count.

I have condensed the list of speakers but the results not shown
were equally as skewed and disturbing as the sampling below:

               Jesus          proph*         Spirit

John Arnott      22              19            65
Wes Campbell     52             159           154
Guy Chevreau      3               4            17
Randy Clark       6              21            42
William Dearteaga 6              14            28
Jack Deere        8              10            14
Mark Dupont      46             145            63
-------------------------------------------------
Grand Total:    143             372           383

"Prophetic", "Prophecy", "Prophesy" are referenced _229_ more times
than Jesus, who is the central focus of revelation and God's
redemptive plan. In fact, the Bible _is_ the testimony of Jesus
Christ.

"Spirit" or "Holy Spirit" are referenced _240_ more times than
Jesus, about whom the Holy Spirit is to testify as John 15:26 tells
us:

"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father,
the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify
about me." (See also John 14:16, 26)

Clearly, those teachings do not place the emphasis where Scripture
tells us it should be. Which ought to be a source of grave concern
within the professing Body of Christ.

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the
surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose
sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may
gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my
own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in
Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I
want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the
fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his
death," (Philip. 3:8-10. See also John 17:3, 1 Cor. 1:21-23, Gal.
6:14)

God bless,
Annie

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550          January 31, 1995 21:16:04
From :  jim ober, 71043,3424       #76696

>>> Yes, and the proof texts quoted in defense of "it" are
Gamaliel's
comments in Acts 5:38-39:<<<<

It is interesting that Paul's teacher Gamaliel has become the
favorite role model of many. As you say he was effectively
defending the gospel and defending the men who preached it from
certain death.

Another aspect of the whole presentation in Acts is the boldness
and conviction with which all of the apostles preached and taught.
When Toronto can duplicate the form, the error is so obvious that
anyone can find it. When Toronto tries to cover it's error, the
message is confused.

The one time that form and message SEEMS to match is when the
subject of the alleged great coming revival is brought up. There is
a dramatic contrast between Randy Clark's confused answer on
discernment and his speech on revival. Of course it is far easier
to speak boldly about what isn't in scripture (a great coming
revival) and hasn't happened.

What is covered in the Bible is a great end time deception which
all are called to watch for. This delusion is characterized by
false christs, a false gospel and counterfeit signs and wonders.
Without the Bible how does one tell the true from the false?
Enthusiasm is no substitute for truth, but it is an effective and
appealing counterfeit.

Your statistical study is quite telling. The emphasis of this move
is clearly NOT on Jesus or His Word.  Advocates of this move have
said "God is bigger than His word" and "Can do what He Wills" but
apparently, in the minds of many, He isn't bigger than the prophets
who take the stage in Toronto and is "sure" to do what THEY say.

Jim



Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  jim ober, 71043,3424        February 3, 1995 15:12:00
From :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550         #77871

---> Your statistical study is quite telling.

I have a few more pertinent statistics you may find interesting as
well, Jim. The word count search from Bible software on the same
words ("Holy Spirit", "Spirit", "Jesus" and "Proph*") from the New
Testament (only) yielded these results:

Jesus or Christ: 1230
Spirit:           324
Proph*:           203

---> The emphasis of this move is clearly NOT on Jesus or His Word.

The facts certainly seem to support your conclusion, Jim. To keep
everything in perspective, I am going to rerun the portion of a
previous post where the original statistics were:

               ***************

A word count of the transcripts from the audiotape teachings at the
Toronto Airport Vineyard from early fall through mid-December
yielded some alarming results. What the condensed chart represents
are the times references are made to the Holy Spirit and prophecy
(or prophetic or prophesy) without any simultaneous reference to
Jesus. The number of times the Holy Spirit is reduced to being
referred to as an "_it_" are so staggering I stopped trying
tocount.

I have condensed the list of speakers but the results not shownwere
equally as skewed and disturbing as the sampling below:

               Jesus          proph*         Spirit

John Arnott      22              19            65
Wes Campbell     52             159           154
Guy Chevreau      3               4            17
Randy Clark       6              21            42
William Dearteaga 6              14            28
Jack Deere        8              10            14
Mark Dupont      46             145            63
-------------------------------------------------
Grand Total:    143             372           383

"Prophetic", "Prophecy", "Prophesy" are referenced _229_ more times
than Jesus, who is the central focus of revelation and God's
redemptive plan. In fact, the Bible _is_ the testimony of Jesus
Christ.

"Spirit" or "Holy Spirit" are referenced _240_ more times than
Jesus, about whom the Holy Spirit is to testify as John 15:26 tells
us:

"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father,
the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify
about me." (See also John 14:16, 26)

Clearly, those teachings do not place the emphasis where Scripture
tells us it should be. Which ought to be a source of grave concern
within the professing Body of Christ.

"More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the
surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have
suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in
order that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having
a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is
through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on
the basis of faith, that I may know Him, and the power of His
resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed
to His death; (Philip. 3:8-10. See also John 17:3, 1 Cor. 1:21-23,
Gal.6:14)

               ***************

I have been a little slow this week, but I will get back with you
on the other posts you have sent me. Thank you for your patience.

God bless,
Annie



Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  jim ober, 71043,3424        January 30, 1995 22:47:14
From :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550         #76331

---> (ie: No theology of discernment is even to be used. Except by
---> the leaders, who just "KNOW").

That is an interesting point you raise. In the Toronto Airport
Vineyard audiotape transcript of October 13, 1994, William
DeArteaga refers to a lack of a "theology of discernment" prior to
Jonathan Edwards:

"Jonathan Edwards developed the Protestant theology of
discernment."

In his book, "Quenching the Spirit", he states:

"Edwards was at a tremendous disadvantage because he had no readily
available theology of discernment....The Reformers rejected the
need for discernment when they threw out the whole of Catholic
mystical theology." (p.55)

In his mind, basically, a (Protestant) "theology of discernment"
simply did not viably exist prior to Jonathan Edwards. He would do
well to read "The Distinguishing Marks of a Work of the Spirit of
God" which shows Edwards unequivocally had a very sound criteria
for discernment of "spiritual phenomena": the Word of God. Anyone
who has read Edwards works along these lines cannot seriously place
him "at a tremendous disadvantage because he had no readily
available theology of discernment". Yes he did, he always did -
Scripture:

"My design therefore is to show what are the true, certain, and
distinguishing evidences of a work of the Spirit of God. And here
I would observe that we are to take the Scriptures as our guide.
This is the great standing rule which God has given to His church,
in order to guide them in things relating to the great concerns of
their souls. Scripture is an infallible and sufficient rule. It
undoubtedly contains sufficient precepts to guide the church in
this great affair of discerning a true work of God. Without such
principles, the church would lie open to woeful delusions and would
be exposed without remedy to be imposed on and devoured by its
enemies." ("Religious Affections", p.332)

Furthermore, Edwards always asserted that "spiritual phenomena" -
feelings and physical manifestations - proved _nothing_ one way or
the other. He was as equally concerned that false works not be
advocated as he was that true works not be deterred. Jonathan
Edwards did not cater to _either_ of the extremist "camps". He was
faced with what he called "wildfire", the fanaticism, encouragement
of and emphasis on physical manifestations advocated by James
Davenport and the "mere lifeless formality" advanced by the other
camp. He endorsed _neither_, contended against both extremes and
took his stand on the Word of God and maintained:

"Practice is the proper evidence of Christian fortitude. A good
soldier is proved, not at home, but in the field of battle. As holy
practice is the chief evidence of our being possessed of grace, so
the degree in which our experience is productive of practice, shows
the degree in which our experience is spiritual and divine.
Whatever pretensions we may make to great discoveries, great love
and joy, they are no further to be regarded than as they actually
influence our practice." ("Religious Affections", p.344-5)

In spite of the fact that a negative generally cannot be proved,
DeArteaga attempts to define his idea of what a _non_-discerning
theology (?) is. However, a definition of "non-discerning
theology", even one as ambiguous as follows does not serve to
validate the opposite - "spiritual phenomena" as evidence of a
"discerning theology" (10/13/94 transcript):

"He did not, Calvin has no theology of discernment. Because in
discernment you have to have the possibility that some spiritual
phenomena is true, some is from the devil, and some is just from
the flesh. Those are the three categories of what happens when you
have a spiritual phenomena....Well, for Calvin, since all spiritual
phenomena and powers stopped with the apostles, there is not a
category of possibly true from the Holy Spirit, it's all, it has to
be of the flesh or of the devil. So if you have spiritual phenomena
-- you see, that's a non-discerning theology."

DeArteaga never defines his idea of the "theology of discernment".
He is more interested in justifying the experience (subjective
feelings, manifestations) of spiritual phenomena than in any kind
of real discernment at all whether Scriptural or otherwise. It is
in this quest he and other Toronto advocates have with great bias
inequitably attempted to utilize the writings of Jonathan Edwards.

So, what _would_ Jonathan Edwards say today about the "Toronto
Experience"? One need only avail themselves of his writings, to
read his magnificent sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"
to see where he placed his emphasis in preaching and teaching. Even
George Whitefield wrote in the end that he had been carried away by
subjective impressions at the height of it all. He gave precise
examples of his error in that regard. So, go, read the legacy a
Jonathan Edwards left behind and contrast his preaching and
teaching to Toronto. You will see the most notable differences. One
is anathema to the other.

"They who leave the sure word of prophecy - which God has given us
as a light shining in a dark place - to follow such impressions and
impulses, leave the guidance of the polar star to follow a Jack
with a lantern. No wonder therefore that sometimes they are led
into woeful extravagances."
          (Jonathan Edwards, On Revival, p.14)

"Why cannot we be contented with the divine oracles, that holy,
pure word of God, which we have in such abundance and clearness,
now since the canon of Scripture is completed? Why should we desire
to have any thing added to them by impulses from above? Why should
we not rest in that standing rule that God has given to his church,
which the apostles teaches us, is surer than a voice from heaven?
And why should we desire to make the Scripture speak more to us
than it does?"
          (Jonathan Edwards, Some Thoughts, p.404)

"And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you
will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a
dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your
hearts." (2 Peter 1:19)

God bless,
Annie


Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550          January 31, 1995 11:31:22
From :  John T. Stevenson, 74301,224    #76487

    /~~~~~\     Wow!!!!
   |  ^ \  |    A tremendous
   |/ Q Q \|    post!
   \|  A  |/    This is CIN
    | \_/ |     at its finest
     \___/      (whether you happen to agree with Edwards or not).

                                     -|-
John T. Stevenson              -|-    |
74301,224                      _|_ _,-^\__    -|-
"It is Finished!"         _,--' _-'       ^~\__|__
                                                  ^~~\




Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550          January 31, 1995 21:16:09
From :  jim ober, 71043,3424       #76697

>>> DeArteaga never defines his idea of the "theology of
discernment". >>>>

The less you put on the table the less you have to defend. When
Peter spoke a Pentecost he made his case from scripture, BOLDLY and
with AUTHORITY. Toronto says prove us wrong. (That is all they can
say).

 >>  It is in this quest he and other Toronto advocates have with
great >> bias inequitably attempted to utilize the writings of
Jonathan >> Edwards.

Well the Bible hasn't worked out so well. Too many people have
copies. So it's grab another straw. Edwards had no problem choosing
between scripture and experience to set a standard. Scripture sets
the standard.

I fully expect a great "revival" accompanied by great signs and
wonders. But it will be a great counterfeit. (See 2Thess 2) Without
the Bible who will know the difference? That is what the rebellion
is all about:

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come
until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed,
the man doomed to destruction. (2 Thessalonians 2:3 NIV)

Jim

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  jim ober, 71043,3424        January 31, 1995 18:14:06
From :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550         #76623

---> It must be a little frustrating to read what Edwards actually
---> wrote in it's totality and then see how he is being proof-
---> texted to defend the indefensible.

It certainly is bewildering, if not frustrating. Here is another
pronouncement attempting to exploit Jonathan Edwards for the sole
purpose of authenticating what is happening both in Toronto and
elsewhere:

William DeArteaga, Toronto Airport Vineyard, 10/13/94, 9:15 AM
session:
"And every revival has a predominant theologian, you know.
Historians say, well in this revival, Charles Finney was the
predominant figure here and theologian of that revival, etc., etc.
And the Lord has already chosen the predominant theologian of this
revival. It's not me! It's Jonathan Edwards. And every book on
revival out there, including my book does central chapters on what
did Jonathan Edwards says about revival. We're commentators on
Jonathan Edwards. That's really true."

Let us look at why Jonathan Edwards would _not_ consider himself
the "predominant theologian" of the alleged "Toronto blessing" and
"revival":

"An erroneous principle, than which scarce any has proved more
mischievous to the present glorious work of God, is a notion that
it is God's manner in these days to guide His saints by
inspiration, or immediate revelation....As long as a person has a
notion that he is guided by immediate direction from heaven, it
makes him incorrigible and impregnable in all his misconduct."

(Jonathan Edwards, "Some Thoughts Concerning the Present Revival of
Religion in New England", p.1:404)

Again, Edwards writes:

"Many godly persons have undoubtedly in this and other ages,
exposed themselves to woeful delusions, by an aptness to lay too
much weight on impulses and impressions, as if they were immediate
revelations from God, to signify something future, or to direct
them where to go, and what to do."

"I would therefore entreat the people of God to be very cautious
how they give heed to such things. I have seen them fail in very
many instances, and know by experience that impressions being made
with great power, and upon the mind...are no sure sign of their
being revelations from heaven."

(Jonathan Edwards, "On Revival", pp. 104, 141)

If DeArteaga is one of the historians for the Toronto Airport
Vineyard, it is very difficult to believe he does not know Jonathan
Edwards was a cessationist. Edwards believed prophecy _ceased_
along with the other charismatic gifts after the completion of the
canon of Scripture. Surely DeArteaga, a historian, could not have
missed Edwards account of his cessationist views and the reasons he
notes in _detail_ for holding them in the following works?:

1. Jonathan Edwards, "Charity and Its Fruits", pp.38, 44-47.

2. Jonathan Edwards, "On Revival", pp.137-.

It is of no small importance to note in the same transcript,
DeArteaga declares:

"Phariseeism is the heresy of orthodoxy which is basically correct
ideas...ironically, the core problem with the Pharisee is that he
cannot recognize the present work of the Holy Spirit....Well, for
Calvin, since all spiritual phenomena and powers stopped with the
apostles, there is not a category of possibly true from the Holy
Spirit, it's all, it has to be of the flesh or of the devil. So if
you have spiritual phenomena -- you see, that's a non-discerning
theology....We all now associate the Great Awakening with Jonathan
Edwards and his great books on the Awakening....So, really,
Jonathan Edwards developed the Protestant theology of discernment
as far as I can see....his theology is probably the best that there
has ever come around. So, that's one incident where the Pharisees
stopped revival."

Either DeArteaga, and Toronto Vineyard by sanction as well, are
inordinately confused or they have exhibited an astounding degree
of prejudicial license in the historical presentation of the works
of Jonathan Edwards, or both. Jonathan Edwards was a cessationist
and only a calculated revisionist's recall of "history" could
overlook that inescapable fact.

DeArteaga has completely and utterly contradicted himself. His
circular logic and assertions are:

1. Calvinism equals Phariseeism which equals the heresy of
orthodoxy, which is basically correct ideas.

2. Calvin had a "non-discerning theology" because he was a
cessationist.

3. Jonathan Edwards developed the "Protestant theology of
discernment".

4. Jonathan Edwards' "theology", himself both an avowed Calvinist
_and_ cessationist, "is probably the best that there has ever come
around".

Therefore, because Jonathan Edwards indisputably demonstrates in
his writings (referenced above) both that he is a cessationist and
why, DeArteaga has inadvertently called the cessationist _beliefs_
of the historical figure he and Vineyard point to as the
cornerstone of their movement - "the predominant theologian of this
revival" - heretical.

Continued.......

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550          January 31, 1995 21:40:31
From :  jim ober, 71043,3424       #76712

>>>> Either DeArteaga, and Toronto Vineyard by sanction as well,
are inordinately confused or they have exhibited an astounding
degree of prejudicial license in the historical presentation of the
works of Jonathan Edwards, or both.<<<<<<

Both? Truth just isn't important to Toronto. Keeping the party
rolling is. People just KNOW that this is of God. They KNEW before
any questions were asked. And so men have been blinded by a
counterfeit light of their own imaginations.

Thanks Annie for you hard work in researching this. What is likely
to happen next is that all of this will be casually dismissed. And
the advocates will go looking for a new error to try and sell. But
once one starts on the wrong foundation one can NEVER get things to
line up properly. This new move is NOT of God.

Jim

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  jim ober, 71043,3424        January 31, 1995 18:14:11
From :  Annie Bynum, 74152,1550         #76624

Continued......2/2

I want to reiterate and emphasize these points about Jonathan
Edwards:

1. He always maintained that "spiritual phenomena" - feelings and
physical manifestations in and of themselves - proved _nothing_ one
way or the other.

2. He was as equally concerned that false works not be advocated as
he was that true works not be deterred.

3. Jonathan Edwards did not cater to _either_ of the extremist
"camps".

4. He was faced with what he called "wildfire", the fanaticism,
encouragement of and emphasis on physical manifestations advocated
by men like James Davenport and the "mere lifeless formality"
advanced by the other camp. He endorsed _neither_ extreme.

Given his well-expressed views about the over-emphasis and excesses
advocated during the Great Awakening from the pulpits of men like
James Davenport, it is clear that Jonathan Edwards would most
certainly _not_ wish to be viewed as the "predominant theologian"
and historical figure of this present movement coming out of
Toronto Airport Vineyard.

Furthermore, one would never have found Jonathan Edwards
emphasizing the "prophetic", reducing the third Person of the
Triune Godhead, the Holy Spirit, to an "it" on innumerable
occasions, while not even concurrently mentioning Jesus Christ, of
whom the Holy Spirit is to testify.

Rather, a careful survey of his writings finds his emphasis rightly
placed on preaching and teaching "Christ and Him crucified" and
contending, _not_ from "fresh [extra-Biblical] revelation", but
Scripturally "for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the
saints" (Jude 3).

Consider carefully his words which follow and contrast them with
where the focus and emphasis are placed, evidenced in the teachings
coming out of Toronto Vineyard, and determine for yourself what
Jonathan Edwards would have to say about all of this alleged
"Toronto blessing", "season of refreshing" and "revival" if he were
here with us today:

"The spirit that causes people to have a greater regard for the
Holy Scriptures and establishes them more in the truth and divinity
of God's Word is certainly the Spirit of God.

"The devil never would attempt to beget in persons a regard to the
divine Word. A spirit of delusion will not incline persons to seek
direction at the mouth of God. 'To the law and to the testimony: If
they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no
light in them!'is never the cry of evil spirits who have no light
in them. On the contrary, it is God's own direction to discover
their delusions. Would the spirit of error, in order to deceive
men, beget in them a high opinion of the infallible Word? Would the
prince of darkness, in order to promote his kingdom of darkness,
lead men to the sun?

"The devil has always shown a mortal spite and hatred towards that
holy book, the Bible. He has done all in his power to extinguish
that light, or else draw men off from it. He knows it to be that
light by which his kingdom of darkness is to be overthrown. He has
long experienced its power to defeat his purposes and battle his
designs. It is his constant plague. It is the sword of the Spirit
that pierces him and conquers him. It is that sharp sword that we
read of in Revelation 19:15, which proceeds out of the mouth of Him
that sat on the horse, with which He smites His enemies. Every text
is a dart to torment the old serpent. He has felt the stinging
smart thousands of times.

"Therefore the devil is engaged against the Bible and hates every
word in it. We may be sure that he never will attempt to raise
anyone's esteem of it."

(Jonathan Edwards, "The Distinguishing Marks of a Work of the
Spirit of God")

"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus,
who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and
His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season;
reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For
the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but
wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for
themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will
turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths."
(2 Tim. 4:1-4)

"We are further resolved that we will preach nothing but the Word
of God. The alienation of the masses from hearing the Gospel is
largely to be accounted for by the sad fact that it is not always
the Gospel that they hear if they go to places of worship; and all
else falls short of what their souls need.

"God being with us, we shall not cease from this glorying, but will
hold the whole of revealed truth, even to the end. You cannot leave
out that part of the truth which is so dark and so solemn without
weakening the force of all the other truths you preach. Brethren,
leave out nothing. Be bold enough to preach unpalatable and
unpopular truth. Remember, you will have to give an account, and
that account will not be with joy if you have played false with
God's truth.

"What marvel if, under some men's shifty talk, people grow into
love of both truth and falsehood! People will say, 'We like this
form of doctrine, and we like the other also.' The fact is, they
would like anything if only a clever deceiver would put it
plausibly before them. They admire Moses and Aaron, but they would
not say a word against Jannes and Jambres. We shall not join in the
confederacy which seems to aim at such a comprehension. We must
preach the Gospel so distinctly that people know what we are
preaching. 'If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall
prepare himself for the battle?'"

(Charles Haddon Spurgeon, "The Greatest Fight in the World")

"Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to
which you were called, and you made the good confession in the
presence of many witnesses." (1 Tim. 6:12)

God bless,
Annie

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Toronto phenomenon
To   :  jim ober, 71043,3424        February 1, 1995 15:07:23
From :  Scott, 75202,3210          #76979

Holy Laughter - A New Phenomenon?

 I submit the following information taken from "SCP Newsletter"
Volume 19:2, Fall 1994.

 Kundalini Energy - Typically described as a powerful energy source
that lies dormant in the form of a coiled serpent at the base of
the spine. Reportedly, when it is stirred and set free it is able
to effect spiritual and physical healings. Authors Christina and
Stanislov Grof, "The Stormy Search for the Self" tell how kundalini
energy can be set off by a spiritual teacher or guru. The Grofs,
New Agers, write, "individuals involved in this process might find
it difficult to control their behavior; during powerful rushes of
Kundalini energy, they often emit various involuntary sounds, and
their bodies move in strange and unexpected patterns. Among the
most common manifestations ... are unmotivated and unnatural
laughter or crying, talking tongues... and imitating a variety of
animal sounds and movements." (p. 78-79)

 Bhagwhan Shree Rajneesh in "Dance Your Way to God" writes, "just
be joyful.. God is not serious ... this world cannot fit with a
theological god ... so let this be your constant reminder - that
you have to dance your way to God, to laugh your way to God!"
(p.229)

 Ramakrishna the Indian saint went into daily trances (samadhi).
During these trances one would fall down in a rapturous state of
super-concious bliss (ananda). These trances lasted anywhere from
a few minutes to several days. They often included uncontrollable
laughter or weeping. He reportedly could put others in this state
with a single touch to the head or chest.

 Swami Baba Muktananda gave "guru grace" to his followers with his
touch. Folowers showed varied manifestations including
uncontrollable laughing, roaring, barking, hissing, crying, shaking
... African Kung Bushman of the Kalahari. The Grof's list parallels
between the Kundalini awakening and the dance (trance dance) of the
African Kung bushmen who "enter a profound altered state of
consciousness associated with the release of powerful emotions such
as anger, anxiety and fear. They are often unable to maintain an
upright position and are overcome by violent shaking. Following
these dramatic experiences, they typically enter a state of
ecstatic rapture..."

 Qigong. Yan Xin, known to people of China, delivered a talk in San
Francisco in 1991 at the Masonic auditorium. The 5/16/91 San
Francisco Chronicle reported, "minutes into his talk, several began
experiencing what Yan Xin call spontaneous movements ... before
long, the scene began to resemble a Pentecostal prayer meeting with
many people waving their arms and making unintelligible sounds."
Yan reportedly told his audience, "Those who are sensitive might
start having some strong physical sensations - or start laughing or
crying. Don't worry. This is quite normal. The article reported
that the Qigong revival started sweeping China in 1985 and said
that 50 to 60 million Chinese have gone to see Yan.

 Subud. J. Gordon Melton in "The Encyclopedia of American
Religions" identifies the practice of "latihan" as the central
element of the Subud faith. It is a group process. "often
accompanying the spontaneous period are various body movements and
vocal manifestations - cries, moans, laughter and singing ...
During this time, people report sensations of love and freedom and
often, healings."

 I'm interested in people's thoughts on this matter. Do we accept
each of these as authentic signs and demonstrations of God's power?
Why should we welcome them within the New Wine movement but reject
them in the other movements? Are they not real experiences? Why
aren't more people bothered by the fact that Scriptural models (I
believe they are nonexistent) for these actions are sparce while
cult examples of the same behavior are abundant?

 May God grant us true wisdom and discernment.
 By Grace,
 Scott Linscott



Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Laughing & Foundations
To   :  Robert M. Sexton, 71754,1402     January 23, 1995 04:42:02
From :  jim ober, 71043,3424       #73233

Bob,

Thank you for the reply.

When the Lord turned on my light switch I laughed "in the spirit"
for nearly 2 weeks off and on, cried too. Trying to explain,
justify or even analyze such an experience in oneself or others is
probably impossible. All I can say is that what happened to me and
what has been described as happening to others are at significant
variance with one another. The principal difference is in the area
of being able, and WILLING, to exercise self- control (Which is a
fruit of the Holy Spirit).

But some objective observations are possible. First what happened
to me was a RESULT of understanding the gospel in my heart for the
first time. With this new move the reaction is triggered by crowd
psychology, or "priming the pump" with a,"Ha-Ha, Ho-Ho, Ha-Ha...."
or the layi hands for the express purpose of producing the
manifestations (or a combination of these).

EVERY report that I have seen from advocates and skeptics alike
reveals that the preaching of the Word takes a back seat to
spreading the manifestation. That is a major difference when
compared to what happened to me, or for that matter, what happened
in the Johnathan Edwards' revival, which is the major "proof
experience" for this new move. The Biblical commandment we we have
for assisting the Holy Spirits evangelistic efforts is the
preaching of the gospel in word (Ro 10) and deed (Mat 5-7).

As for fruit, immediate results are not especially useful in
judging anything, as the Lord Himself explained. Good "roots" are
critical for sustainable spiritual life. There is an open hostility
in this move toward reasoned Biblical study. And that guarantees
that good roots will never be put down.

As you are a pentecostal, I am sure that you are familiar with the
relevant texts in the book of Acts and 1Co 12-14 which lay a clear
foundation for the modern manifestation of the gift of tongues.
That foundation is so clear that the burden rests with the
anti-tongues movement to show that this gift is not for today. But
that is a REASONED conclusion from scripture.

Ironically it is 1Co 14's teaching on decently and in order and not
like a madhouse that creates the greatest problem for this new
move. The first time I cited 1Co 14 over on the RF, in connection
with this new move, I got charged with blasphemy.

There is a lot more here, but the files in the section 2 library go
into it in far more detail than I can in a series of messages. I
encourage you to take a look at the files. I would be glad to post
a list if you like.

There were several excellent points in your last message I would
like to address.

On Science. The first question is what is science? My professional
training is entirely in the field of experimental science. Said
science can tell us much about a very few things. One could argue
that the entire modern world was built on the foundation of: Force
= mass * acceleration (even though F = MA is hardly an "absolute
truth.") But because of that success, scientific "thought" has been
applied to other non-mechanistic fields (such as the nature and
origin of man) in the hope of getting similar results. This effort
has clearly been a failure. Once one moves beyond the world of the
mechanistic, the observable and the repeatable, "science", as
popularly defined, becomes worse than useless. It offers the
promise of knowing all things which it can never do.

>>>> "Throughout my discussion, I will be sustained --- and
liberated --- by the concept of complementary.  For if I ask a
question from one point of view, I will have one answer.  But if I
ask the same question from another, and quite different, point of
view, I may very well have a second answer.  The second may be
inconsistent with the first, but it can viewed as complementary.
And the two answers taken together will provide a richer, truer
picture than either separately."

Therefore, using human reason and logic on top of Bible
interpretation can lead to apparently contradictory results.  For
example, "once saved always saved" versus "losing your salvation"
and "saved by grace" versus "faith and obedience", "baptism is not
required" to "baptism is required," and "Free Will" versus
"Predestination." <<<<

These are excellent insights. Biblical truth is usually more that
some either\or dichotomy that ends up forcing one to pick some pos
clearly contradicts some other portion of scripture. Finding the
deeper truth is a matter of reason and revelation working together
to resolve the apparent contradictions that clearly exist in
scripture.

The missing dimension is the dynamic of growth. 2Peter 1:3-11, Mat
5-7. The Spirit and the Word cooperate together to increase both
our faith and knowledge. Faith and works cooperate together to
increase faith and works.

I tell the predestination folks that if I don't have free will, I
was certainly programmed to believe that I have it, and who am I to
argue with my programmer. <G>

The Bible has some profound promises on wisdom:

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all
truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he
hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16:13 NIV)

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously
to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. (James
1:5 NIV)

Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be
transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to
test and approve what God's will is-- his good, pleasing and
perfect will. (Ro. 12:2 NIV).

Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is
the word of God. (Eph. 6:17 NIV)

Jim

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Laughing & Foundations
To   :  jim ober, 71043,3424        January 22, 1995 16:39:03
From :  Robert M. Sexton, 71754,1402    #73029

Jim:

JO<<<<<The discussion we have been having concerns the new
"laughing revival" which is being "moved" primarily by Rodney
Howard-Borwne and the Toronto Airport Vineyard church.>>>>

I have read about the Toronto thing and it seems a little weird ---
to say the least --- and I am Pentecostal.<G>

Generally, I am pretty good at spiritually discerning things, but
I haven't witnessed or followed the Toronto happenings.

However, both when I was Baptized in water and when I received the
Holy Ghost, I was _very_ happy.  The Book of Acts describes new
converts as "rejoicing" at their conversion.  I do know that people
occasionally get a Holy Ghost blessing and are very happy ---
laughing and dancing and praising God.

Certainly joy and rejoicing are Scriptural:

Luke 24:52  And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with
great joy: Luke 24:53  And were continually in the temple, praising
and blessing God. Amen.

Acts 8:8  And there was great joy in that city.

Acts 13:52  And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the
Holy Ghost.

Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but
righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Rom 15:13  Now
the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that
ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23  Meekness,
temperance: against such there is no law.

1 Th 1:6  And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having
received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

James 4:7  Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil,
and he will flee from you. James 4:8  Draw nigh to God, and he will
draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your
hearts, ye double minded. James 4:9  Be afflicted, and mourn, and
weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to
heaviness. James 4:10  Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord,
and he shall lift you up.

1 Pet 1:8  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye
see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and
full of glory: 1 Pet 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the
salvation of your souls.

3 John 1:4  I have no greater joy than to hear that my children
walk in truth.


Is the Toronto thing a manifestation of God or Satan?  I don't know
until their fruits are manifest.  Scripture says:

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets,
and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were
possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:25  Behold, I
have told you before.

Mat 7:16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes
of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mat 7:17  Even so every good tree
bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil
fruit. Mat 7:18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither
can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mat 7:19  Every tree
that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the
fire. Mat 7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Eph 4:14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and
fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight
of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to
deceive;

2 Tim 2:15  Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that
needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2
Tim 2:16  But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will
increase unto more ungodliness. 2 Tim 2:17  And their word will eat
as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 2 Tim 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection
is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 2 Tim 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal,
The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth
the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


JO<<<<As for revelation being superior to reason, I certainly
agree. It is one thing to reason one's way to the conclusion that
there has to be a God. It is something else to know it in one's
heart.  And the second is clearly superior to the first.>>>>

Human logic, reasoning, and thought can be very much in error.  I
have studied this for some time now.  I was especially alarmed to
read the books "Mathematics: The Loss of Certainty" by Morris Kline
(1980) and "The Mathematical Experience" by Philip J. Davis and
Reuben Hersh (1981).  I always thought that Mathematics was the
essence of pure human logic and reason but was surprised to find
that this ultimate bastion of human endeavour and thought was
flawed.  That was a shock!

Another book, "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" by Thomas
S. Kuhn (1970) put another "nail in the coffin" of pure unbiased
scienfific reasoning.

I know we have to use reasoning, logic, and thought, but the longer
I live I see that this approach occasionally leads to erroneous and
contradictory results.  The Emil Brunner book "Revelation and
Reason" presents an excellent discussion of this based on the
Bible.

I was struck by the following excerpt from "Religions in America",
page 302:

"Throughtout my discussion, I will be sustained --- and liberated
--- by the concept of complementarity.  For if I ask a question
from one point of view, I will have one answer.  But if I ask the
same question from another, and quite different, point of view, I
may very well have a second answer.  The second may be inconsistent
with the first, buit it can viewwed as complementary.  And the two
answers taken together will provide a richer, truer picture than
either separately."

Therefore, using human reason and logic on top of Bible
interpretation can lead to apparently contradictory results.  For
example, "once saved always saved" versus "losing your salvation"
and "saved by grace" versus "faith and obedience", "baptism is not
required" to "baptism is required," and "Free Will" versus
"Predestination."

Of course, it takes a _certain_ amount of reasoning and thought to
even read and understand the Bible.  But when it comes right down
to, if our human thinking doesn't agree with God's Revelation, then
_we_ are the ones in error.

As an example in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the
heaven and the earth."  Modern physicists should consider that this
one statement includes all the elements of modern physics: time,
energy, space, and mass --- several thousand years before Albert
Einstein.<g>

God Bless,

Bob



Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Laughing & Foundations
To   :  Robert M. Sexton, 71754,1402     January 23, 1995 04:42:02
From :  jim ober, 71043,3424       #73233

Bob,

Thank you for the reply.

When the Lord turned on my light switch I laughed "in the spirit"
for nearly 2 weeks off and on, cried too. Trying to explain,
justify or even analyze such an experience in oneself or others is
probably impossible. All I can say is that what happened to me and
what has been described as happening to others are at significant
variance with one another. The principal difference is in the area
of being able, and WILLING, to exercise self- control (Which is a
fruit of the Holy Spirit).

But some objective observations are possible. First what happened
to me was a RESULT of understanding the gospel in my heart for the
first time. With this new move the reaction is triggered by crowd
psychology, or "priming the pump" with a,"Ha-Ha, Ho-Ho, Ha-Ha...."
or the layi hands for the express purpose of producing the
manifestations (or a combination of these).

EVERY report that I have seen from advocates and skeptics alike
reveals that the preaching of the Word takes a back seat to
spreading the manifestation. That is a major difference when
compared to what happened to me, or for that matter, what happened
in the Johnathan Edwards' revival, which is the major "proof
experience" for this new move. The Biblical commandment we we have
for assisting the Holy Spirits evangelistic efforts is the
preaching of the gospel in word (Ro 10) and deed (Mat 5-7).

As for fruit, immediate results are not especially useful in
judging anything, as the Lord Himself explained. Good "roots" are
critical for sustainable spiritual life. There is an open hostility
in this move toward reasoned Biblical study. And that guarantees
that good roots will never be put down.

As you are a pentecostal, I am sure that you are familiar with the
relevant texts in the book of Acts and 1Co 12-14 which lay a clear
foundation for the modern manifestation of the gift of tongues.
That foundation is so clear that the burden rests with the
anti-tongues movement to show that this gift is not for today. But
that is a REASONED conclusion from scripture.

Ironically it is 1Co 14's teaching on decently and in order and not
like a madhouse that creates the greatest problem for this new
move. The first time I cited 1Co 14 over on the RF, in connection
with this new move, I got charged with blasphemy.

There is a lot more here, but the files in the section 2 library go
into it in far more detail than I can in a series of messages. I
encourage you to take a look at the files. I would be glad to post
a list if you like.
There were several excellent points in your last message I would
like to address.

On Science. The first question is what is science? My professional
training is entirely in the field of experimental science. Said
science can tell us much about a very few things. One could argue
that the entire modern world was built on the foundation of: Force
= mass * acceleration (even though F = MA is hardly an "absolute
truth.") But because of that success, scientific "thought" has been
applied to other non-mechanistic fields (such as the nature and
origin of man) in the hope of getting similar results. This effort
has clearly been a failure. Once one moves beyond the world of the
mechanistic, the observable and the repeatable, "science", as
popularly defined, becomes worse than useless. It offers the
promise of knowing all things which it can never do.

>>>> "Throughout my discussion, I will be sustained --- and
liberated --- by the concept of complementary.  For if I ask a
question from one point of view, I will have one answer.  But if I
ask the same question from another, and quite different, point of
view, I may very well have a second answer.  The second may be
inconsistent with the first, but it can viewed as complementary.
And the two answers taken together will provide a richer, truer
picture than either separately."

Therefore, using human reason and logic on top of Bible
interpretation can lead to apparently contradictory results.  For
example, "once saved always saved" versus "losing your salvation"
and "saved by grace" versus "faith and obedience", "baptism is not
required" to "baptism is required," and "Free Will" versus
"Predestination." <<<<

These are excellent insights. Biblical truth is usually more that
some either\or dichotomy that ends up forcing one to pick some pos
clearly contradicts some other portion of scripture. Finding the
deeper truth is a matter of reason and revelation working together
to resolve the apparent contradictions that clearly exist in
scripture.

The missing dimension is the dynamic of growth. 2Peter 1:3-11, Mat
5-7. The Spirit and the Word cooperate together to increase both
our faith and knowledge. Faith and works cooperate together to
increase faith and works.

I tell the predestination folks that if I don't have free will, I
was certainly programmed to believe that I have it, and who am I to
argue with my programmer. <G>

The Bible has some profound promises on wisdom:

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all
truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he
hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16:13 NIV)

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously
to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. (James
1:5 NIV)

Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be
transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to
test and approve what God's will is-- his good, pleasing and
perfect will. (Ro. 12:2 NIV).

Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is
the word of God. (Eph. 6:17 NIV)

Jim

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Laughing & Foundations
To   :  jim ober, 71043,3424        January 23, 1995 11:45:25
From :  Robert M. Sexton, 71754,1402    #73323

Jim:

JO<<<<But some objective observations are possible. First what
happened to me was a RESULT of understanding the gospel in my heart
for the first time. With this new move the reaction is triggered by
crowd psychology, or "priming the pump" with a,"Ha-Ha, Ho-Ho,
Ha-Ha...." or the layi hands for the express purpose of producing
the manifestations (or a combination of these).

EVERY report that I have seen from advocates and skeptics alike
reveals that the preaching of the Word takes a back seat to
spreading the manifestation. >>>>

I am _always_ turned off by manipulation and crowd psychology!!!!
 When I started my trip back to the Lord in 1981, I went to every
church that was open because I was so hungry for the Word of God.
Some of the wilder churches did some very _weird_ stuff.  Like
_teaching_ people a "prayer language."  I didn't know enough about
the Bible then, but I certainly was troubled in my spirit at that
behavior.

If they (Toronto) are manipulating the crowd to manifest the
"manifestation," then they are totally wrong!

In a Pentecostal church, the Spirit and manifestion of the Spirit
comes either because of Praise, Worship, or anointed preaching of
the Word.  Not due to some pulpit manipulation.  On the day of
Pentecost,

Acts 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began
to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Note, "as the Spirit gave them utterance," not as "someone taught
them" or "someone manipulated them."

1 Cor 14:10  There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the
world, and none of them is without signification.

1 John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits
whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out
into the world.

1 Cor 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.



<<<<But because of that success, scientific "thought" has been
applied to other non-mechanistic fields (such as the nature and
origin of man) in the hope of getting similar results. This effort
has clearly been a failure. Once one moves beyond the world of the
mechanistic, the observable and the repeatable, "science", as
popularly defined, becomes worse than useless. It offers the
promise of knowing all things which it can never do.>>>>

The "science" of pyschology is an excellent example.  Man is not a
machine, but created in the image of God.  It is foolish to think
that someone can tell what is going on inside someone's head!  I
mean, sometimes I have a hard enough time figuring out my head,
much less someone else! <g>  BTW, try understanding a teenager!
<ROFL>  That is living proof that pychology and the rest of the
"social sciences" are built on flawed premises.

Pyschology, especially, is built on lies and half-truths.  For
example, to gather data, you tell the test group one thing, and the
control group another. One or both groups have been lied to or
tricked or manipulated in some manner. And from this, they expect
to extract "scientific" data.  All they get are falsehoods.  A
science built on lies will not stand.

<<<<These are excellent insights. Biblical truth is usually more
that some either\or dichotomy that ends up forcing one to pick some
pos clearly contradicts some other portion of scripture. Finding
the deeper truth is a matter of reason and revelation working
together to resolve the apparent contradictions that clearly exist
in scripture.>>>>

I was scanning Emil Brunner's "Revelation and Reason" and he points
that (to paraphrase) logic, reason, science, etc. work (usually) on
"things", or objects in the world.  To apply the same tools to
human thoughts, intellectual ideas, and God is not justified, and
frequently erroneous.

To interpret the Bible, one must "rightly divide the word of truth"
and take and consider the revelations in the Bible.  Not, as some
have done, start with a philosophy and superimpose that on top of
the Bible.  I mentioned several of these in my previous post to
you.
Enough for now.  Get the Brunner book if you can find it.  It is
very interesting.

God Bless,

Bob



Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Laughing & Foundations
To   :  jim ober, 71043,3424        January 24, 1995 12:20:12
From :  Jon Larsen, 76131,1535          #73702

Some interesting thoughts and wisdom.  I to received the Baptism
and did have one small experience of holy laughter. And a few years
ago, I was going through a second very intense repentance and
couldn't hardly believe God touching me in such a way, considering
my sin. It was an example of His Grace in my life.  You doe well,
by compareing current teaching and experiences too the scripture,
Jesus's promises and the advice by Paul.  The excesses in the
vineyard movement seems frightening to me.  And has caused some
doubt in my Penticostal experiences. Especially since some good
teachers are still very much opossed to the second baptism. I do
believe my receiveing baptism was an act of obedience. And the
Baptism is scriptural. the question is what of the Vineyard
experience is of God and what is not. God seems to really pour his
blessings on baby christians, and really show his love and power in
magnificant ways. I say this realizing there are probalby no
scripture to back that statement up.  Also I know God is patient
and His love covers a multitude of sin. I suspect the leaders of
this movement need to be prayed for much. For if they do not
continue to grow satan shall get a foothold, and this has happened
in most of our revivals of the past. what was started out in the
spirit and returns to a more of a fleshy kind of thing, as in the
problem with the Hebrews. Returning to the flesh can be both a
legalistic flesh or a soulish flesh too.
   One other thing about the Pentalcostal movement on Azuzu St.  It
had many people for and against. And they had there problems too.
But I believe history is proving the validity of it. People have
been empowered since those days to preach the gospel, and set the
captives free in such a way which we have not seen since the early
church.
   On science and creation.  I heard it said once that science can
only answer the question of how. It has not authority to do
anything but understand how things work. But not to answer why or
what for.  I know how I got on this earth, but don't know exactly
for what purpose God has for me.

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Laughing & Foundations
To   :  Jon Larsen, 76131,1535           January 25, 1995 22:39:23
From :  jim ober, 71043,3424       #74236

Jon,

(Part 1 of 2)

Let me tell you about my experience which is probably not that
unusual. I grew up in a Christian home, but for me the real
excitement was elsewhere, in the world of science, the rational,
the deterministic. Religion was a creed that one affirmed, the
world of the supernatural largely a myth. Then when I was about 22
years old I went through a series of experiences that made the
supernatural very real to me. But I had no real grounding in
scripture to guide and anchor any of this. I went from a dead
profession of a good creed, to a living worship of spirits. I went
from the frying pan into the fire. This was not in the company of
some new age cult but in the company of professing Christians.

When one becomes aware of the reality of the world of the spirits,
a critical decision point is reached. One must decide what to do
about that world. Those whose religious tradition has no experience
with such things never teach about them. And those who have
experience in this area tend to assume that the discernment of that
which is "of God" and that which is "of Satan" is easily
accomplished by a simple analysis of immediate results and
commitment. This and the related threads could really be retitled
proper discernment.

Improper discernment and methods of discernment are at the root of
what has caused this move to move with the power and speed that it
has. Some have suggested that the spirit is Holy but the people are
in error. In fact the cause and effect is just the opposite.
Because of poor discernment a deceiving spirit has been able to
invade the church.

Even if one rejects this view the following will happen. Because
those affected by this spirit have no root when it comes to things
of the spirit, they stand wide open to be deceived. Meanwhile the
leaders speak about spirits in a one dimensional sense. In effect
they say, "It has power, it FEELS like God so it must be God." NOT
ALL SPIRITS ARE FROM GOD. And Satan does not come as the man of
sin. He comes disguised an ANGEL OF LIGHT. Feelings and superficial
analysis are a disastrous standard for discernment.

Here is a key question. Why would a loving God allow people who
profess to be seeking Him to be demolished by a deceiving spirit?
So they learn about deceiving spirits. Some have to learn the hard
way. But that is not the "A Plan" which is to learn from scripture.
The Holy Spirit wrote the New Testament and He is not divided
against himself. The first obvious test is this; does the "spirit"
testify consistently with scripture. If not, it's not the Holy
Spirit.

It is interesting that advocates go backward to defend this move.
But God's plan moves forward. For example Paul explicitly teaches
that the model at Pentecost is NOT to be used in a church service.
At Pentecost 120 people spoke in tongues. (They all spoke in
tongues at the same time). Here is Paul:

So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in
tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come
in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? (1 Co 14:23
NIV)

We are not in the Old Testament and not at the very beginning of
the age of the church.

A second test concerns the character of the spirit. The Holy
Spirit's WORK is to turn men's hearts to Jesus. He doesn't speak on
His own. One should carefully consider the WORK of the Holy Spirit.
Here is a major component:

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all
truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he
hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring
glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the
Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. (John
16:13-15 NIV)

This is a transfer of knowledge, and an amazing promise to transfer
ALL TRUTH. Some see this as a supernatural zapping with truth, and
sometimes it may manifest that way. But usually it is a combination
of study and diligently seeking (our part) with the Holy Spirit
providing the understanding and heartfelt certainty. Effort and
reward go together throughout the New Testament.

God is not the author of confusion (It should not be hard to
determine who is the author of confusion). True Godly heartfelt
understanding comes with a clarity of intellectual understanding.
A true revelation from God should speak to heart and mind alike,
with clarity. As the 5 month long discussion of this issue on CIS
will show, that clarity is conspicuous by it's absence. Immediately
after the profoundly bizarre events at Pentecost, Peter got up and
BOLDLY and with AUTHORITY explained FROM THE BIBLE exactly what was
happening and what it meant.

The Holy Spirit is omnipresent, everywhere at the same time. One is
not to go anywhere to find Him:

At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or,
'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false
prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to
deceive even the elect-- if that were possible. See, I have told
you ahead of time. (Matthew 24:24-25 NIV)

The Lord says He is ALWAYS with us:

And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Mat.
28:20 NIV).

He never leaves us, no matter how things seem. He explicitly warns
us not to go places looking for Him. But this new move is about
experience chasing, no matter how much the advocates of the move
try to deny it. People are not flying half way around the world to
hear John Arnot preach.

Continued.....

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Laughing & Foundations
To   :  Jon Larsen, 76131,1535           January 25, 1995 22:39:19
From :  jim ober, 71043,3424       #74238

(Part 2 of 2)

People are deceived about how God works IN people. Why should
someone need to be touched from the outside by a God who lives on
the inside? This new move is an act of spiritual adultery. It is a
denial of the power of God living inside every true believer. Said
error of the spirit led God to use Babylon to destroy ancient
Israel. There is no new thing under the Sun.  Writing of God's
ministry to the Gentiles (the Church) and comparing it to His work
with ancient Israel, Paul wrote:

But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by
faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare
the natural branches, he will not spare you either. (Romans
11:20-21 NIV)

The context here is conditional but the rebellion makes it a
certainty:

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come
until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed,
the man doomed to destruction. (2 Thess. 2:3 NIV)

Ancient Israel was supremely confident that it lived under divine
protection and it did. Rome wasn't Israel's problem (Romans 13).
Israel was Israel's problem and God sent the Romans to destroy
Israel for that very reason. God offered everything He had,
Himself, but it wasn't enough. They wanted more of God.

The church of the modern pharisee and the church of spiritual
adultery each see the other as the enemy. But God is their enemy
and by the time they find that out it will be too late.

God has already given us everything we need. (2Peter 1:3-11) But
everybody wants more of God.

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun. (Ecc. 1:9 NIV).

You are right that we should pray for the leaders of the Vineyard
and of the other churches affected by this move. John Wimber has an
admirable passion for God. That is undeniable. But passion without
understanding is as disastrous a combination as there is in this
life. God promises to provide ANY of us wisdom without finding
fault:

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously
to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. (James
1:5 NIV)

..to guide us into ALL truth, and to reward those who DILIGENTLY
seek Him:

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that
cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of
them that diligently seek him. (Hebrews 11:6)

But we have to seek God alone, not our desires for experience, or
good looking results, no matter how Godly such things may appear:

But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these
things will be given to you as well. (Mat. 6:33 NIV)

People need to be very careful about judging anything by external
appearances.


>>> I heard it said once that science can only answer the question
of how. It has not authority to do anything but understand how
things work. But not to answer why or what for.  I know how I got
on this earth, but don't know exactly for what purpose God has for
me. <<<<

Well the so called scientific study of origins seeks to explain HOW
you got here. ALL that modern experimental science can say is that
based on REPEATED OBSERVATIONS, an event (a) predictably precedes
another event (b). Anything beyond that is speculation. True
experimental science is a powerful tool. So men try to label as
science anything that they do. The hope is that the reputation of
"real" science will enhance their image in the eyes of an ignorant
world (as it does).

Given Ecc 1:7 one can build a science of theology. (based on
repeated observation). It's one conclusion is that every age ends
in deep apostasy and widespread ignorance among the people "of God"
as to the nature and extent of that apostasy.

God is clearly un-dispersing his ancient nation and putting it back
together on the edge of the property He promised to his good friend
Abraham. Abraham's descendants, physical and spiritual, have never
had permanent possession of ALL of that promised land (from the
Nile to the Euphrates). One needs to soberly consider why He is
doing such a thing at this time. Many believe that God is through
with the Jews as a chosen people. What few are willing to consider
is that he might be through with the institution we call the
church. But that is nothing new.

As for your "purpose". First one must put on the helmet of
salvation and take up the true sword of the spirit.

Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is
the word of God. (Eph. 6:17 NIV).

God's plan extends into eternity. His salvation insures that life
will not end at the grave. The mind has to be focused on the view
that our earthly life is but a blink of the eye compared to our
total life. God's plan for you is an eternal plan. The Word of God
gives specific instructions for finding your calling and making it
sure in your heart. 2Peter 1:3-11 is the place to start.

Jim

Forum:  Ministry Outreach+         Section:  Issues Awareness
Subj :  Laughing & Foundations
To   :  jim ober, 71043,3424        January 26, 1995 07:35:08
From :  Jon Larsen, 76131,1535          #74378

Jim, thanks for the time you spent writing to me.  I do know from
experience that yes satan does come as an angel of light.  I was
decieved by that once and repented and was delivered through some
Penticostal christians that had understanding and discernment. I
was fortunate. One thing I did notice in old testiment was God
warned the Isrealites that He would raise up false people that
would produce miricales, to test the people of Isreal, to see if
they would stay true to Him or not. I believe that He does this to
this day. In hearing of the extremes of this new movement I found
myself doubting the whole Penticostal movement. I do believe that
the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is for today and needed very badly.
I believe this primarily is for the upbuilding of the Body of
Christ and not for personal gratification.  My goal is to Follow
Jesus for my time hear on earth. And I believe that is where our
Growth and maturity is based.  I  was  shown How disobedient I have
been in my life. And my hope is to learn to trust and obey.  Yes
the Christian Church has been in times of judgement and in times of
plenty.  We don't have a history to be proud of.  But Jesus said to
Peter that the gates of hell, will not prevail against the chruch
he was to build.  Now we know that Jesus didn't say that we
wouldn't lose some battles on the way. But just as we lost some
battles in wwII  our enemy didn't prevail. And we have the promise
in Rev. that Satan will be defeated.  Paul also writes in Rom.
that in the end time many Jews will come to the Lord.  I suspect
these times are closer than  ever. Jesus did say that the Truth
sets people free, and that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth.
                                                            Jon